From the U.S. Government Accountability Office, www.gao.gov Transcript for: How To Get Off Our High Risk List Description: Occasionally, we deem some programs and operations ‘high risk’ because they are especially vulnerable to fraud, waste, abuse, or mismanagement, or in need of transformation. We then make recommendations to agencies on how to address these risks. How can programs get off our High Risk List? We find our more from GAO’s Michelle Sager. Related GAO Work: GAO-22-105184, High Risk Series: Key Practices to Successfully Address High-Risk Areas and Remove Them From the List Released: March 2022 [Michelle Sager:] The report that we're talking about today more or less debunks the myth that once an area is added to the High Risk List, it remains there forever. [Music] [Holly Hobbs:] Hi and welcome to GAO’sWatchdog Report—your source for news and information from the U.S. Government Accountability Office. I’m your host, Holly Hobbs. Here at GAO, we review federal operations to ensure that programs and policies are effectively and efficiently serving the American taxpayer. Occasionally, we deem some programs and operations ‘high risk’ because they are especially vulnerable to fraud, waste, abuse, or mismanagement, or in need of transformation. We then make recommendations to agencies on how to address these risks. Today, we'll talk with GAO's Michelle Sager, the Managing Director of our Strategic Issues Team, about how often programs come off our High Risk Lists and how they did it. Thanks for joining us. [Michelle Sager:] Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. [Holly Hobbs:] So, Michelle, have any programs on our High Risk List ever made it off? [Michelle Sager:] The short answer is yes. The report that we're talking about today more or less debunks the myth that once an area is added to the High Risk List, it remains there forever. In fact, since the inception of GAO'S High Risk List in 1990, we have added 66 areas to the list and we have removed more than 40% of the areas on the list in response to demonstrated progress. [Holly Hobbs:] Can you give us examples of things that are currently on our High Risk List and why they're on there? [Michelle Sager:] Definitely. We currently have 37 areas on GAO's High Risk List, and these areas span the spectrum of federal programs and activities. So, for example, our most recent addition to the list is the Department of Health and Human Services’ leadership of public health emergencies. And for over a decade, we had found issues with how HHS’s leadership prepared for and responded to emergencies, including the COVID-19 pandemic, as well as other infectious diseases and extreme weather events, such as hurricanes. But we also have many other areas on the High Risk List that include cybersecurity; national efforts to prevent, respond to, and recover from drug misuse; enforcement of tax laws; strategic human capital management. And the list goes on covering the entire federal government. And these areas have been added to the list because it brings much needed attention to problems that can impede effective government and cost hundreds of billions of dollars each year. [Holly Hobbs:] And so lots of federal programs have risks, right? It's just a lot of money being spent nationally. So at what point does the risk level become high risk? [Michelle Sager:] That's a question we get asked a lot and to determine which federal government programs and functions should be designated as high risk, we follow guidance that we've developed over three decades to determine performance and accountability challenges that rise to what we call the high-risk designation. And this includes qualitative factors such as whether the risk involves public health or safety, service delivery, national security, national defense, economic growth, or if it could result in significantly impaired service, or program failure, or injury or loss of life. And we also consider the fiscal exposure or the potential for loss in monetary or other quantitative terms. At a minimum, $1 billion must be at risk in areas such as the value of major federal assets being impaired or revenue sources not being realized, or major agency assets being lost, stolen, damaged or underused; or, in many cases, evidence of improper payments. So there's a combination of qualitative and quantitative criteria that go into determining whether an area gets added to the High Risk List. And then before making that designation as high risk, we also consider corrective measures that may be planned or underway already, and the status and the effectiveness of those actions. [Holly Hobbs:] So what would we expect agencies to do to get off the list? [Michelle Sager:] This is a question that is asked frequently at congressional hearings. And the intent of this report is to provide a guide or roadmap to explain how agencies can take action to successfully address high risk areas. And we have key practices for high risk action and progress that we use to measure whether agencies are taking action, whether an area is narrowed, and whether eventually it might be removed from the list. And these key practices include leadership commitment, capacity, action plan, monitoring, and demonstrated progress. So to dive a little deeper on each of those—leadership commitment can be congressional attention, Office of Management and Budget Engagement, as well as federal agencies’ sustained leadership, planning, and execution to address these areas. Capacity could be staff, funding, internal controls, technology and the organizational infrastructure that's necessary to address a high risk area. An action plan would be an agency being able to define what the root cause is, what the solutions could be, and then providing an approach to take corrective measures and implement solutions. Monitoring is having a plan in place to help agency leaders track, monitor, and then validate the effectiveness and the sustainability of the measures they take. And then the ability to demonstrate progress in implementing these corrective measures and resolving the high risk area is also critical. [Holly Hobbs:] So how are we measuring progress towards addressing our concerns and getting these items off the High Risk List? [Michelle Sager:] So these are some of the most pressing challenges facing the nation. Having said that, we know that dedicated action to address areas with vulnerabilities to fraud, waste abuse, and mismanagement, or in need of transformation, is vital to making progress on the current and emerging challenges facing the nation. And this progress often requires that top level attention by federal officials. And so this report provides a guide for what agencies can do to take action. And then we also provide some examples of areas that have been removed from the High Risk List or where the area has narrowed over time because agencies took action. [Music] [Holly Hobbs:] So Michelle just told us that even though we have designated dozens of federal programs and operations as High Risk, many improve and come off that list. And that we have a new resource for helping federal agencies take actions to get off our list. So Michelle, is there anything that would just never come off our High Risk List because it's always going to be an area of concern? [Michelle Sager:] We would never add an area to the list and say it will be there in perpetuity. But we also recognize that these areas are on the High Risk List because they are seemingly intractable in many cases, and they are some of the most difficult issues facing the nation. Nonetheless, by having these areas on the High Risk List, that can be a catalyst for agencies and policymakers to take action and to come together to think about and then demonstrate how they can address these areas. And as a result, there are tangible benefits and those can be in the form of financial savings or also non-financial results. For example, during the past 16 years alone, we measured $626 billion in financial benefits to the federal government that is traced back to taking action on these high risk areas. [Holly Hobbs:] And last question, what's the bottom line of this report? [Michelle Sager:] This report provides a guide for agency leaders to take action. And lasting solutions to these high risk problems can potentially save billions of dollars, can dramatically improve service to the American public, can also strengthen public confidence and trust in the performance and accountability of the government, and can ensure the ability of the federal government to deliver on its promises. [Holly Hobbs:] That was Michelle Sager talking about our High Risk List. Thanks for your time, Michelle. [Michelle Sager:] Thanks so much. [Holly Hobbs:] And thank you for listening to the Watchdog Report. To hear more podcasts, subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen. And make sure to leave a rating and review to let others know about the work we're doing. For more from the congressional watchdog, the U.S. Government Accountability Office, visit us at GAO.gov.