From the U.S. Government Accountability Office, www.gao.gov

Transcript for: Agent Orange

Description: It's been nearly 50 years since the military deployed Agent
Orange during the Vietnam War. GAO reports on how government agencies
today deal with information on where the tactical herbicide was used.

Related GAO Work: GAO-19-24: Agent Orange: Actions Needed to Improve
Accuracy and Communication of Information on Testing and Storage
Locations

Released: November 2018

[Background Music]

[Brian Lepore:] Based on the persistence in soil, there could be some
challenges identifying whether Agent Orange was actually present. 

[Matt Oldham:] Welcome to GAO's Watchdog Report, your source for news
and information from the U.S. Government Accountability Office. I'm Matt
Oldham. During the Vietnam War, the Department of Defense shipped around
12 million gallons of the tactical herbicide named Agent Orange to
Southeast Asia. The military used it to destroy plant life there from
1965 to 1971. So why are we talking about this today? Well, with me is
Brian Lepore, a director on GAO's Defense Capabilities and Management
team, and he led a report looking at how the Department of Defense has
been dealing with information on Agent Orange issues. So what's new,
Brian? 

[Brian Lepore:] What's new with respect to Agent Orange is a renewed
interest among the veterans on where Agent Orange was present in the
United States, to include the territories such as Guam. The issue is
many of the veterans believe they were exposed to Agent Orange and other
tactical herbicides outside of the Vietnam. And if they were, they may
qualify for certain enhanced benefits. So there's a really renewed push
to try and find out, was it present in the United States? And if so,
where? 

[Matt Oldham:] Why is there concern over Agent Orange? What are the
risks to the veterans? 

[Brian Lepore:] Veterans who were exposed to Agent Orange and certain of
the associated tactical herbicides may qualify for enhanced benefits
from the Department of Veterans Affairs. The National Academy of
Sciences has identified a series of diseases that they believe has been
associated with exposure to Agent Orange and a second set of diseases
which, in which they, using their terms, there is a suggestive or
potential exposure pathway. So there is, there is some evidence that
that exposure causes problems, and the veterans may qualify for
additional benefits if, in fact, they can prove their claim. 

[Matt Oldham:] So what government agencies or government organizations
would be involved with looking at veterans' exposure to Agent Orange? 

[Brian Lepore:] It's basically a partnership between the Department of
Defense and the Department of Veterans Affairs. The Department of
Defense has developed a list of locations where Agent Orange was
believed to have been manufactured, tested, potentially used in the
United States, and also where it was shipped through and to. And that
list has actually been provided to the Department of Veterans Affairs.
The VA has the list on its website. One of our findings, though -- and
this is particularly important -- is we found some inaccuracies in the
list. In addition, there is some context in that list that -- I should
say there is some context that needs to be in the list that really
isn't. So the list is helpful, but it's not complete, and it really
needs to be updated. So it is a partnership between DOD and VA. 

[Matt Oldham:] What would this mean for somebody who thinks that they
may have been exposed to Agent Orange and this new information makes it,
you know, they can prove it? 

[Brian Lepore:] To the extent that the veterans, an individual veteran
can prove that he was or she was exposed to Agent Orange, then they
would file a claim with the Department of Veterans Affairs, and there is
a process -- it's a somewhat lengthy process -- but there is a process
that VA will use to try and verify that the veteran actually was
exposed. But there are some uncertainties in, that we talk about in our
report. As an example, Agent Orange is composed of 2 primary chemicals.
The second chemical, 2,4,5-T, has dioxin in it. It's a by-product of the
manufacturing process. That's the toxic part of Agent Orange. It turns
out -- and as we talk about in our report -- there were 4 commercial
herbicides that were available in the federal supply catalog during the
Vietnam era that were also available for use and, in fact, DOD may have
used those commercial herbicides on the installations in the United
States. Agent Orange is categorized as a tactical herbicide. And by DOD,
regulation was not authorized for use on installations. That said, it
doesn't mean it didn't happen. It simply means it was not authorized. 

[Matt Oldham:] And, so one of the issues that you found was that it's
not very easy for a veteran to find out if they've come in close contact
with Agent Orange. 

[Brian Lepore:] Yeah. There are a couple of things that are important to
note from our report. The first thing was, with respect to Guam in
particular since that was a focus that the Armed Services Committee was
interested in, is that we know Agent Orange was not developed on Guam
and was not manufactured on Guam. Therefore, if it was used there, as
some of the veterans believe it was, it had to get there somehow. And we
found there were about 158 voyages, at least that we could identify,
shipping Agent Orange from the United States to Vietnam. Of those
shipments, we found 1 ship, the SS Gulf Shipper, we can confirm based on
the records stopped in Guam and was carrying 65,000 gallons of Agent
Orange aboard. We do not know the entire purpose of the stop. We could
not ever locate any customs records, which would tell us whether
anything was offloaded. 

[Background Music]

[Matt Oldham:] It sounds like even though the Department of Defense and
Veterans Affairs offer information on Agent Orange, that information can
be inaccurate, incomplete, and isn't always clearly understood by
veterans looking to learn more. So Brian, what does your report
recommend? 

[Brian Lepore:] Well, what we recommended was a set of recommendations,
I should say, that were addressed to both DOD and to VA. And all of
those recommendations go to improving the list, adding some context to
that list, and updating the list as new information becomes available. 

[Matt Oldham:] So we're talking about dioxin and we're talking about
where Agent Orange has been. We're also talking about the veterans who
may have come in contact with Agent Orange. If it's determined that
Agent Orange was used in a location, is there any concern about how to
clean that up? I mean, is this something that's going to take a lot of
effort as well? 

[Brian Lepore:] We actually do have some cleanup operations under way in
the United States, actually, so in places where it was manufactured. For
example, places where it's manufactured, you're going to get a very
large concentration by definition because it's a factory and they're
producing the chemicals that are then combined to create Agent Orange.
And so, in fact, there have been some EPA cleanup sites in the United
States. So that is not uncommon or even unheard of. What we don't know,
though, is in locations where it might have been used, the concentration
is going to tend to be less than would be at a manufacturing location.
So there may or may not be a need for cleanup in those locations, but
there have been some in places where it was manufactured. 

[Matt Oldham:] So Brian, what do you believe is the bottom line of the
report? 

[Brian Lepore:] I think the bottom line of the report is there are still
gaps in our knowledge about what happened half a century ago,
thereabouts, with Agent Orange. There are gaps on where it was shipped
to, where it was used, where it was tested. We know some of it. Some of
it is in the records that we could locate and that DOD has developed for
the VA. But there are still gaps, and there is, probably is going to
need to be more research to try and find those locations where it might
have been present and perhaps some more soil sample testing to see if
that could also be helpful. Hopefully, it'll be done quickly enough to
help the veterans. 

[Matt Oldham:] Brian Lepore is a Defense Capabilities and Management
director here at GAO, and he was talking about a GAO report on how
government agencies have been handling information about Agent Orange.
Thank you for your time, Brian. 

[Brian Lepore:] Thank you. It was a pleasure to be here. 

[Matt Oldham:] And thank you for listening to the Watchdog Report. To
hear more podcasts, subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts. For more from the
congressional watchdog, the U.S. Government Accountability Office, visit
us at GAO.gov.