From the U.S. Government Accountability Office, www.gao.gov Transcript for: Transformational Technologies Cuppa GAO: Coffee with Our Experts (Facebook Live Chat) Description: Scientific and technological innovation is an important component of U.S. economic competitiveness and prosperity. In this October 4, 2018 Facebook Live chat, we talk with GAO Director John Neumann about transformational technology areas, such as quantum computing, synthetic biology, and other innovations that could change our everyday lives. Related GAO Work: GAO-18-656: Science and Technology: Considerations for Maintaining U.S. Competitiveness in Quantum Computing, Synthetic Biology, and Other Potentially Transformational Research Areas Released: October 2018 [ Matt Oldham ] Hello and welcome to Cuppa GAO, coffee with our experts. This is your coffee break with our experts where we take time to answer your questions on GAO related topics. And today, we're talking about tomorrow. Well, transformational technologies, at least, those innovations that have the ability or ploys to potentially change aspects of everyday life. And if you're like me, and when the first time I heard transformational technologies, I didn't know exactly what it was. But don't worry, I'm here with John Newman, he's a director at GAO and deals with science and technology issues. And John, you recently had a report that dealt with transformational technology. [ John Newman ] Yes. Yeah, we did. We looked at a couple different technologies in this report. The transformational technology essentially are technologies that have potential to -- you know, the new technologies that could potentially significantly enhance existing technologies or create completely new areas of technology. And so, in this report, we looked at two areas, quantum computing and synthetic biology. It's essentially case studies of different types of transformational technologies. [ Matt Oldham ] And one of the focuses of the report was quantum computing. Could you talk a little bit about what that is and why it's important? [ John Newman ] Sure. Yeah, so quantum computing is a completely different approach to computing where essentially, we're relying on the behavior of atoms or molecules to manipulate data. The potential there is to be able to perform much more complex compute -- computational problems, as well as to compute at faster speeds than current computing allows. [ Matt Oldham ] And another topic was synthetic biology. What is that? What can we expect from this? [ John Newman ] All right, so that's a combination of biology and engineering to essentially manipulate life forms and so, for example, gene editing, where you can edit genetic material to either add or take away certain physical traits. [ Matt Oldham ] And these are things that I assume will have application in the near future for us? [ John Newman ] Yeah, so synthetic biology, there are applications already being used right now. For example, in genetically engineered crops, and synthetic -- producing synthetic biofuels for energy purposes. And there's a real potential to have advances in medical breakthroughs to be able to detect and even eliminate certain diseases through synthetic biology. [ Matt Oldham ] Now these aren't the only transformational technologies that GAO has done work on. Could you talk a little bit about some of the topics GAO has explored or reported on recently? [ John Newman ] Sure. So, under the direction of our chief scientist, we do a technology assessment every year, so looking at emerging technology areas. And recently, we've looked at artificial intelligence and some of the implications of that technology. We've looked at the internet of things that connect -- increased connectivity of devices to the internet, as well as other areas, like 3D printing. [ Matt Oldham ] So, as we talk about these transformational technologies, we would ask that if you have any questions, feel free to send them to us in the comment section. We'll get to them as we see them. John, as we talk about these transformational technologies, I imagine the interest isn't just in the sort of advances we can see in the future, but also where America stands in the global environment. Are we leaders in these fields? [ John Newman ] Yeah, so the U.S. has been a world leader in research and development in these technology areas for decades. There's a lot of research going on both at the federal level, federal agencies, universities, and in companies. And so, we do have an entrepreneurial culture where innovation is important. But however, there are experts that believe that if we don't change some things to be more competitive, that we may lose our edge to other countries that are making huge investments in certain research areas, like China, for example. [ Matt Oldham ] And when you say we may lose our edge, are we looking at economic concerns, or are we looking at national security concerns? [ John Newman ] All the above. Yeah, so there's certainly economic implications. Each of these emerging technology areas have the potential to really grow our economy, add millions of jobs, but also there are national security considerations. For example, if someone else gets ahead of us in quantum computing, they could have the lead in cyber-security and encryption, which would make it difficult for us to keep up. [ Matt Oldham ] John, we have our first question and it's taking us back to the topic of synthetic biology. It's from Onivas and they ask -- I hope I'm pronouncing that right. They asked, what disease is almost likely to get addressed with synthetic biology? Do we have a -- do we have a feeling for that? [ John Newman ] So, we didn't cover that in our report. We looked at what federal agencies are doing in terms of research and we know that the agencies, like the human -- Health and Human Services Agency, and NIH, and others, you know, are doing research to look at that and where we can apply it. And some of this is still, you know, in development but there's definitely the potential to detect certain genetic diseases that maybe could potentially would be eliminated. But there are definitely ethical concerns about adjusting human life forms and so that's something that will have to be addressed before those can be put into place. [ Matt Oldham ] And looking at the federal government's involvement in this, what is being done to support these potential game changers? [ John Newman ] Yeah, so as we mentioned in our report, there are a range of agencies; for example, in synthetic biology, we identified ten agencies that are conducting research in synthetic biology and sometimes the research is for just furthering scientific knowledge and other times, it's for a specific purpose or mission for the agency. For example, the Defense Department wants to know how to protect against certain pathogens that might be developed in synthetic -- synthetic biology and so having that research ongoing to help them stay ahead of any new challenges that could come -- new threats that could come from things developed with synthetic -- synthetic biology. [ Matt Oldham ] So, once again, thanks for joining us. We're having a Cuppa GAO with John Newman, a director here who deals with science and technology issues. And we're talking about transformational technologies and we're taking your questions. John, as a frame of reference, could you talk about some examples of transformational technologies that we may be familiar with that has -- that have come out recently? [ John Newman ] Well, I think, for example, you know, the biofuels, you know, synthetic biofuels for energy purposes are already in use. Genetically modified crops is already something that's being, you know, done with synthetic biology. On the quantum computing side, that's still maybe a decade or more away from having, you know, real applications. The research is ongoing, there's definitely some promise there, but it will take some time before we can figure out how to stabilize that technology, and apply it, and use it in ways that's faster than existing computer technology. [ Matt Oldham ] Looking at quantum computing, could you talk a little bit about what sort of federal agencies are involved and what that involvement entails? [ John Newman ] All right, so there's -- in our report, we identified six different agencies that are involved in quantum computing -- computing research, like Department of Defense, Department of Energy, and the National Science Foundation, among others. And they each have different purposes for doing the research. The Defense Department, for example, is again, looking to stay ahead militarily, how to maintain that military edge amongst -- amongst potential adversaries; whereas, the National Science Foundation, on the other hand, is really just looking to further scientific knowledge and to identify those areas where there could be of potential value to the public and the economy. [ Matt Oldham ] Has there ever been any talk about bringing these different federal agencies under one umbrella, under -- under an overarching organization? [ John Newman ] So, the U.S. research system is very decentralized and has been so since World War II and we didn't have any concerns with that, but we did look at the interagency working groups in this report to see how our agencies coordinating with each other to ensure that we're learning from each other as we're doing research in this -- the common areas. And then we believe that with leading practices for collaboration that the interagency coordination could be improved, for example, by better defining outcomes and working towards a common purpose, and so that's something we recommended in the report. [ Matt Oldham ] Is there any concern from the federal government that it may look like they're in the -- they're in the game of picking winners and losers as they go about these endeavors? [ John Newman ] Yeah, you sometimes hear that but, you know, most of this research is in early stages. And so, if the federal government's not funding it, it's not likely that a company is going to go out and fund something, unless it has a proven product or service it can get out of that. So, the federal government does a lot of research or supports research at the universities and even at companies to further the knowledge. And then it's up to companies decide, you know, where is the potential value that they can get out of that technology. So, there are definitely programs in place to help do that, for example, technology transfer programs at agencies. But that's an area that -- the experts we identify -- we talked to in this report had concerns about, that there may be a gap between the early stage research and the commercial product and that that's something that the U.S. needs to think about and address if we want to remain competitive. [ Matt Oldham ] And were there specific recommendations from GAO on how to address that gap? [ John Newman ] So, rather than recommendations, what we did is we pull together an expert panel of about 20 experts from quantum computing, synthetic biology, and other broader research areas, and we got them together for a two-day discussion with the help of the National Academies of Science and from that, we identified some key considerations for congress to think about, as we talk about how to remain competitive in these transformational research areas. [ Matt Oldham ] Okay, if you're just joining us, this is Cuppa GAO, coffee with our experts, and we're talking about transformational technology, those -- those innovations that are poised to change aspects of our daily life. We talked about quantum computing, we talked about synthetic biology. John, what can we expect in GAO -- GAO in the future when it comes to looking at science and technology issues? [ John Newman ] So, we're doing a range of science and technology related audits. So we look at the evaluation of programs and policies the federal government has in the science programs. For example, we're in the course of looking at the advanced manufacturing institutes. These are institutes that were set up to help advance manufacturing and ensure that we, in the U.S., are able to maintain our competitive edge in that area and increase that because we have competition from other countries. And so, that's an example of an area that we'll be reporting on. And then, you know, we have planned work looking at other emerging technology areas, for example, blockchain is an area that is of great interest and will -- under the direction this chief scientists, will likely do some work to evaluate that technology, and where it stands, and the implications of that. And blockchain, you know, that's cryptocurrency. Essentially, that has the potential to really change the way we do financial transactions. [ Matt Oldham ] You've mentioned how our standing is related to other countries and the importance of really getting this right to maintain where we are. Are we looking at the efforts that other countries are taking in these research areas? [ John Newman ] Well, you know, sometimes that that does come up in some of our work and in -- for example, in the advanced manufacturing work, we are looking at other models of collaboration, including Germany has a model for collaborating public private partnerships in research areas, so we look at lessons learned from that. But also, in the U.S., there's lots of examples of public private partnerships that have been very successful. Sematech is a good example where it -- it was an industry-led but a government sponsored effort to, you know, coordinating on--on electronic circuitry and other things necessary for the economy. [ Matt Oldham ] Quantum computing seems to be a popular topic in this chat. We've got a question from Louie who wants to know what specific effects could our society see from advancements in quantum computing? [ John Newman ] Yeah, so I mean a lot of that is still to be determined and while we talk to the agencies and experts about this research area,we didn't really probe on all the potential applications. We wanted to get a better understanding of what research is ongoing, who's funding it, and what are the gaps, if any, in some of the things we need to do to make sure we're staying on the top of this research area. But there's definitely wide-ranging applications. I think I mentioned earlier cybersecurity, you know, it could improve cybersecurity, encryption, and anywhere where you need -- any field where you need computer simulation, complex computer simulation, and so that's where it could have all sorts of applications. [ Matt Oldham ] And you had mentioned how important it is for us to get this right. I mean the first -- the first person or the first nation to really figure quantum computing out, they're going to have quite an edge, won't they? [ John Newman ] Potentially, yeah. I mean especially if they can stay ahead of us in the encryption, then they will have the edge on cybersecurity. [Matt Oldham] There's another question from Sarah, this is more general. She's asking, how will these new technologies impact her daily life. Could you give some examples of some things that -- you know, put on your fortune-teller hat and what's coming down the pipe? [ John Newman ] Yeah, I mean -- so in synthetic biology I think is the one that, you know, it stands out to me as having a real impact. I mean being able to eliminate certain diseases, genetic diseases, I mean talk about, you know, life-changing, life-saving. So, I think that's where you have a lot of potential. But there's other transformational research areas that, you know, have the potential to change, you know, artificial intelligence, again, machine learning. We're increasingly seeing more and more, you know, computers assisting daily life, and that's got a lot of benefits, but there's some risks and challenges there as well. [ Matt Oldham ] You're watching Cuppa GAO, coffee with our experts, where we take time to answer your questions on GAO topics and with me is John Newman, a director at GAO, deals with science and technology issues. John, could you talk a little bit about your work at GAO? What are some of the things that you encounter? [ John Newman ] Sure. So, in kind of leading a cross-cutting look at science and technology programs, we have three basic areas of work that we focus on, just kind of oversight and management of research and development programs, making sure that the money is being spent efficiently and effectively, and so that's something we look at. We also look at management and protection of intellectual property, that includes things like the Patent Office ability to issue quality patents that won't be -- that will stand up in court essentially. And then we also look at just the ways that the federal government supports innovation. And as I mentioned, you know, things like these public-private partnerships to advance certain technology areas and make sure that the U.S. economy is taking full advantage of these technology areas. [ Matt Oldham ] Coming back to where we started, the report that was just released last week, could -- could you give a little background on that again for people who have just joined, the transformational research, and quantum computing, and synthetic biology? [ John Newman ] Sure. So, in this report, what we set out to do is look at, you know, some selected areas of transformational research, those that have the potential to really transform, you know, certain technology and have impact the broad ranging impact. And we selected quantum computing and synthetic biology as two emerging areas of technology that were useful to look at. And to get a better understanding of, how do the federal agencies support this type of research, what other research is going on in the private sector and non-federal entities, and then how well is that research coordinated. And then lastly, look at, you know, what types of considerations do we need to think about to ensure that the U.S. remains competitive in these emerging areas? [ Matt Oldham ] And why did -- why did you pick quantum computing and synthetic biology? [ John Newman ] Well, so there's certain characteristics that experts had identified. We have spoken to a wide range of experts. We have our own internal experts too here in GAO, I mentioned our chief scientists earlier. And so, we -- consulting with internal experts and then external experts, we identified quantum and synthetic biology as two emerging areas that we hadn't looked at before and were of interest to a large group of people. [ Matt Oldham ] And were there recommendations that came out from the report? [ John Newman ] Yes, so in this report, we identified that, you know, the agencies are coordinating, they're sharing some knowledge, they're getting together in these working groups led by various agencies. But we thought that they could do a better job of implementing some of the leading practices that GAO has identified on interagency collaboration, for example, identifying and working towards common outcomes. So, that's something that we recommended that the chairs of those working groups implement and then we can be assured that the research is being leveraged and that they're working towards a common purpose. [ Matt Oldham ] So, these are issues that don't just pertain then to quantum computing. [ John Newman ] Right. So, while the recommendations were specific to these two areas, because that's what we focused on, I think the lessons learned apply to all areas where you have into interdisciplinary research going on, both in the public and private sector. [ Matt Oldham ] And can we expect -- I've asked this question before, but I think it's important for people who've just joined -- can we expect a focus, a new focus, a different focus from GAO on science technology? Is there is there going to be more effort on this? [ John Newman ] Well, we certainly are talking with Congress regularly to find out what their needs are. As you know, GAO is -- it gets much of its requests for audits and reports from Congress, the form of request letters, or mandates in law. And so, we're really communicating with different is to find out what areas in the science technology field that would be of interest and use to them in their policymaking. So, we're the, you know, fact-based, nonpartisan, you know, folks that can provide that information to congress, and then they can use that to make policy decisions, as well as the agencies can also make changes -- improvements to their programs. [ Matt Oldham ] We've got another question, and that is what caused GAO to study or look into these topics? I think we just went over that. But in general, how does that process work? [ John Newman ] Right. So, in this case, we had a request from a committee, the House Science Committee, and they were very interested in learning how does the federal government support transformational research. So, it was a pretty broad question to ask. So, we kind of translated that into something that was a little more manageable and came up with, you know, an approach that allowed us to, you know, incorporate expert views, both internal and external experts, since we're not scientists on the audit side but we have scientists here on staff. And then also, just looking from a policy and program evaluation standpoint, how are these agencies doing? What are the practices they need to be implementing to ensure that they're successful in what they're trying to achieve? [ Matt Oldham ] This is Cuppa GAO, coffee with our experts, and we're talking about transformational technology. John, I think we're going to start wrapping this up. So, please ask your questions. Why are they important? What's the federal government interest in these things? [ John Newman ] Well, I think that the potential for, you know, these types of innovative technologies have the potential to create millions of jobs, add trillions of dollars to our GDP, and they have -- you know, could provide real improvements to our lives. And so, I mean if you think about technologies like GPS or the internet. Those were started with federal research funding and, of course, companies had to develop that into something that's useful for the public. But over time, that has become ubiquitous. I mean I use GPS every morning trying to get to work on time. [ Matt Oldham ] Right. And talking about GPS, that was developed, you know, with support or through the Department of Defense, so there were national security concerns with it. Are there heavy national security concerns with things like synthetic biology or quantum computing? [ John Newman ] Right. So, you know, if there are national security concerns up to that agency to kind of protect that information. I think with a lot of this research, the general principles that we're learning can be applied to multiple disciplines, so that information is shared, you know, outside of that domain. But yeah, as we designed specific applications, those might be the national security, you know, protected. [ Matt Oldham ] We do have another question that's from [inaudible] and they asked what agencies are most heavily involved in quantum computing and synthetic biology research? [ John Newman ] Okay. Yeah, so for quantum computing, we focused on six agencies that had some major efforts going on in quantum computing, and ten agencies that were involved in synthetic biology. For the quantum computing area, you know, Defense Department, Department of Energy, NASA, the National Science Foundation, amongst others were involved in a significant amount of research there. On the synthetic biology, you know, the range of agencies really expanded to include other agencies, like EPA and USDA, and so there's a whole range of agencies. And there might be other agencies that are doing small things in this area as well that we didn't capture but we were focused on kind of the major players in the federal research. [ Matt Oldham ] And then we've got another question, John, and that is, what federal entity created GPS? I've pointed it out, not to put you on the spot. [ John Newman ] Yeah, well, I will have to look at the report, but I believe it was a Navy/DOD technology that was to help guide them in -- out in the open sea. [ Matt Oldham ] Okay. Well, John, is there anything you'd like to add before we wrap up here? [ John Newman ] Well, just that I think some of the experts that we've brought together, you know, like I said, we've brought together a cross-section of experts and they identified some really important considerations for congress and the federal government to consider as we think about these transformational research areas. And, you know, one of the things that they mentioned was this having a strategic approach, that's really important. But another thing that I thought was also very valuable to mention was workforce and we don't necessarily have people trained for the workforce we're going to need for tomorrow. And so, we're always talking about preserving jobs in the U.S., well that's really important. So, you know, experts identified that as an area that we need to focus on that, you know, industry and universities need to work together to make sure people are trained for the jobs of tomorrow. So, I think that's another area that I think it's really important to highlight from that report. [ Matt Oldham ] Sounds great. Well, thank you very much, John. [ John Newman ] Thank you, Matt. [ Matt Oldham ] And thanks for watching this episode of Cuppa GAO, coffee with our experts. If you're interested in finding more about GAO products, please go to gao.gov. And if you're interested in finding out more about John's report, you can search on gao.gov for GAO-18-656, that's the report number, and you can find out more. And if you have questions that we didn't get to, if you have questions -- if you're watching this after we've posted it, after we've been live, please send those questions to askus@gao.gov, that's A-S-K-U-S-@G-A-O.GOV and thank you very much.