From the U.S. Government Accountability Office, www.gao.gov Transcript for: Air Pollution from Electricity-Generating Power Plants Description: Audio interview by GAO staff with David Trimble, Director, Natural Resources and Environment Related GAO Work: GAO-12-590: Air Pollution: EPA Needs Better Information on New Source Review Permits Released: July 2012 [ Background Music ] [ Narrator: ] Welcome to GAO's Watchdog Report, your source for news and information from the U.S. Government Accountability Office. It's July 2012. Most of the nation's electricity comes from units that burn fossil fuels, such as coal, natural gas, and oil. These units are also major sources of air pollution. A group co-lead by David Trimble, a director in GAO's Natural Resources and Environment team, recently reviewed the issues around the New Source Review Permitting Process that applies to these sources of electricity. GAO's Jeremy Cluchey sat down with David to learn more. [ Jeremy Cluchey: ] Can you give a sense of the state of electricity production in the United States today? [ David Trimble: ] Yeah, well right now about 70 percent of the electricity generated in the United States is from…generated using fossil fuels. Of that 70 percent, about 45 percent of this is made using coal and about 24 percent is generated using natural gas. [ Jeremy Cluchey: ] And you're report dealt in particular with the New Source Review Permitting Process which applies to new plants; any electricity generating plants. Can you explain how this process works? [ David Trimble: ] Yeah, the New Source Review requirements kicked in around 1977 and essentially plants built after 1978 all had to comply and obtain New Source Review permits for their construction. The regulations also applied to existing plants that underwent a major modification. The requirements really sort of hinge on a couple of things; one is whether there's a major modification as well as whether or not the modifications will result in a significant net increase in emissions. So the questions being asked in terms of determining the applicability of the permitting requirements can be very technical and difficult to reach a conclusion. [ Jeremy Cluchey: ] How did you find that older plants compare with newer plants in terms of their emissions and electricity production? [ David Trimble: ] Yeah, older plants generally, like I indicated, right now older plants generate about 45 percent of the electricity coming from fossil fuels, but they create a disproportionate amount or share of the emissions. So for example, sulfur dioxides, these older plants account for 75 percent of the sulfur dioxides but nitrogen oxides, they account for about 64 percent, carbon dioxides, they account for 54 percent. Some of this is because the older plants are predominately coal versus the newer plants are more likely to be or have a higher percentage of gas plants, they have fewer controls, and the newer plants are generally more efficient. [ Jeremy Cluchey: ] And to what extent have plants undergone the New Source Review Permitting Process since it was introduced? [ David Trimble: ] This was a tough question to get a good answer on and we are unable to simply because there's no central database or collection by EPA of all the permits. The permits are issued by the states and while each state tracks what they have, there's no central database to go to, to see how well or how comprehensive these permits have been issued. [ Jeremy Cluchey: ] And I understand this…the difficulty in answering that question leads into one of the recommendations GAO is making in this report. Can you talk about some of those recommendations? [ David Trimble: ] Yes, we've made two recommendations. The first is for EPA to collect nationally all the New Source Review permits so they have this database to: one, to understand better of how the program's operating, but also to help inform their compliance efforts. And then second, to develop a process to make sure that their input into the permitting process is being heard so that they can assess whether the states are taking action on the recommendations regarding how these permits are being issued. [ Jeremy Cluchey: ] Finally, for taxpayers interested, what's the bottom line here? [ David Trimble: ] Well, I think it's an interesting insight into the state of electricity that shows the older plants are definitely more polluting. Many of the stakeholders we talked to indicated while the New Source Review program has problems, they have pointed to some of the positive effects of this program. The other thing I would do to advise people is just to keep this in context. New Source Review is only one of many requirements that the electricity sector faces in terms of complying with environmental regulations. There are several other new regulations coming online soon which will have a very large impact on the emissions from these units. [ Background Music ] [ Narrator: ] To learn more, visit GAO.gov and be sure to tune in to the next episode of GAO's Watchdog Report for more from the congressional Watchdog, the U.S. Government Accountability Office.